Episode Transcript

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Breathe in. Breathe out. Open your heart and reflect on these words. If you want a conscious man who honors you, then you have to own the ways you have unconsciously dishonored yourself. To reclaim your pleasure, you must reclaim your faith. Once you own every inch of who you are, nothing and no one can own you. Look inside and hold your little girl close and she'll show you how to look through the eyes of an awakened woman.

See the times you sought your lover's attention instead of finding home within your own, the times you played the healer or the mother to prove your love was needed, the times you look to him to fill the father role your younger self needed, the times you clung to a future promise for a false sense of security, to place a bandage on top of every underlying insecurity, the times your hard no became a soft yes, the times you let your instincts be silenced through his persistent explanation. I know it's hard, my love, but reclaim all of it. Feel all of it, because the woman who feels the most, contains the most life. So shake up the power that sleeps inside of you and let it burst. Surrender to yourself and trust that you will not fall apart. On the other side isn't just pleasure but divine pleasure. It isn't just love, but divine love. If you want a conscious man who honor you, fiercely honor yourself first.

These words are by my friend Allie Michelle from her latest book, The Words Left Unspoken. As you know already, this episode is a conversation between Allie and me. We sit together and reflect it on many wonderful, fascinating aspects of the divine feminine Goddess Kali, sensuality, healing, and much more. In the material dimension, Allie is a three-time bestselling author and viral spoken world artist that has a community of over half a million strong. Her three poetry collections consistently hit number one in poetry within the first week of release, and that's a big deal in the modern book market, in the modern publishing industry. Allie is also the co-founder of holistic women's wellness community, We Are Warriors. It has over 13,000 members. She's certified in yoga, breathwork, meditation, reiki. And Allie's goal is to teach people practical tools that help them connect with themselves and honor their creative expression.

Now, what you've heard so far is her talent in writing powerful words, and this was her official bio. But on a personal level, I can tell you, I sincerely and truly believe she's one of the most honest, raw, authentic voices in poetry, but also in healing. I'm not sure if Allie considers herself a healer, but her work, her loyalty to her craft makes her a very precious healer. When I started diving deeper into her mind, into her awareness, I knew I want her on Leela Gurukul Podcast. And my hope is you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed diving into her mind and really reflecting on all the things she had to share. If you resonate with this episode, do share it on your Instagram. Do share it with people who may get inspired by Allie's words. Enjoy the episode. I am Chandresh Bhardwaj, and this is Leela Gurukul.

Hi Allie, welcome to the Leela Gurukul Podcast. So happy, so glad to have you here.

Allie Michelle: Thank you. It's so wonderful to be here. Truly.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. And congratulations on the book. How does it feel for the book to be out now?

Allie Michelle: A little strange. It's like I feel far removed from those poems now. And now that the book is finally out, I feel like there's all this space and these new projects and ideas are coming through, and that's really exciting. But there was definitely a grieving process of like, "Wow, I held onto this for so long and now it's gone. It belongs to the world."

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, it's emotional moment for the book to leave you and become everyone's right. Are you happy with the response to the book?

Allie Michelle: I am. You know, it's interesting because my other two poetry books I think touched a wider audience, but for this one, the ones who do enjoy its intensity and connect with it seems to be so much deeper, and that means a lot to me. Like I'd rather it touch fewer people, but on a deeper level.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. So I'm curious to get your take on it. Do you think the success of your first two books or this book, the way people see it, the way people receive it, what does that success change in you as an artist? Or what does that acceptance of others shift you as an artist?

Allie Michelle: I think your audience is in some ways the younger version of you because they're finding guidance in your words. And so in a way, it's inspiring because I feel like no experience I go through, no amount of suffering could ever be wasted if I could turn it into something that people can see themselves in. So it's very empowering as well. It's a give and take.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: I like that. You speak one of the many, many reasons I feel so connected to you because you speak the kind of language I speak in my mind and I write about it as well. I haven't seen many people using that kind of language. And you are right, this is solid, intense book. And intense is my favorite feeling. This is beautifully intense book. Well, one musing of you where you wrote down "Burn down that house of cards you call a reputation." I find this so fascinating because everyone is chasing hustling for that reputation. I've always encouraged people to destroy the reputation, burn it out there. It's probably the first time I'm meeting another human who's talking about burning down the reputation. Can you say more about it? What's your relationship with reputation and how can one burn down that house of cards?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I think if you look at it like math, there's zero balance, right? And success has you over here at +10 and failure has you over here at -10, but either way, you're totally off balance. I find at least if someone is seeing me from my reputation and not me, it's kind of a one-sided mirror because I'm looking at them, but they can't actually see me. And so there's actually no real connection or intimacy and I'm playing a character and there's nothing that feels more suffocating to me than playing into a character of how I think someone sees me. So I'd rather just burn down the reputation. And nowadays, I try and let my work speak for itself instead of be like, "Look at me. Look at me. Look at me," you know?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Do you think the social media has affected that reputation in negative or positive way for you or for the woman you see around?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I grew up on social media. I mean, I gained a following at 17, which is so young and you have no idea who you are, especially because I did my yoga training and I was posting like kind of acrobatic poses online, and all of a sudden people looked at me like a spiritual leader and it just wasn't real. And it was so debilitating for a while because I'm 19, 20, and think I have to have all the answers. I think it's kind of a trap a lot of people fall into in the kind of new age spiritualism. So I had to kind of burn down that reputation and just focus on the writing because it was a lot more fulfilling. And it also didn't put me on a pedestal to be a writer. If anything, it just humanized me more. And that I realized that was a lot more fulfilling than anything else.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: I relate to that part. When I was at the same age, 18, 21-ish, I started writing columns about spirituality, tantra, and people started sending questions to me. I would advise them, answer those questions. I feel it added a lot of ancientness to my existence. I would tap into that space. Friendships started changing because my friends at the age of 18 were not writing spiritual columns. They had different interests. I also had those interests, but I had also different dimensions to myself. So I'm curious, how did you navigate and how you currently navigate the space of friendships? Is it tough to make friends?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, it used to be. And maybe you understand this at from what you just said, is when you have a lot of wisdom and you become the one people look to, it's a little difficult because I feel like there's not too much room to explore who you are, who you want to be and make mistakes, which is actually how you earn wisdom I feel, is just hard-earned experience. And so for a while, the wisdom was actually debilitating too, because I was this very old soul, but I wasn't getting to enjoy that kind of wild exploration of my youth. Whereas now again, because I'm so human, like I'm so, so human, my heart can be broken and I mess up all the time. I think it's more so how you clean up a mess afterwards than not making a mistake in the first place. But before, I was too afraid to even step forward. So I think now it's a lot easier to make friends because the friends that I tend to draw to me are just far more real, if that makes sense, because of the path I've taken now.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. In the age of social media and also the COVID happened, so I think the in-person meetings, in-person experiences were less and less, how did you navigate the mental health space and nurturing the friendships with the good friends and with yourself as well? How did that take place for you?

Allie Michelle: I had a very different COVID experience than anyone. I lived in Kauai for five years, so super tiny island. I was as far deep in the jungle as you could be away from civilization. There was maybe eight of us living on the same road. And so when they shut down the island, I'm seeing everyone in person, like the same eight faces again and again and again. No one was really getting COVID because we were so spread out. But I had a different challenge in that when you're seeing the same people, stuff inevitably starts to come up because you can't avoid them and you can't avoid yourself in those relationships. So I kind of had the opposite experience where I learned a lot about myself and human behavior, kind of like Lord of the Flies. If everyone's trapped on an island, what starts to happen?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Right. So speaking of that, dealing with the human behavior and with yourself, what really fascinated me about you, you volunteered at a teenage suicide hotline from the age of 13 to 18. Is that correct?

Allie Michelle: Yeah.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Okay. I don't know any teenager, Allie, who would do that, or any adult who can handle it for that period of time. What inspired you? What motivated you? What kept you going at that tender age to hold the space for something like this?

Allie Michelle: I mean, there's always been kind of mental illness in my family. It was my aunt and my sister and just different family members and I couldn't understand, and I really wanted to. I wanted to know how I could help and I also wanted to understand for my own healing. It's called Teen Lines. So they train you like a therapist for a year basically. It's a teen to teen suicide hotline. So that was kind of the idea, was you'd be talking to your peers. There was always like an adult therapist in the room, but it was five-hour shifts. Sometimes that whole shift would be with one person. It was such a fine line of like if you're calling, you don't necessarily want to actually do it, but you're at a very fragile point where you might.

So I learned a lot about psychology and about how to be there for someone in a fragile moment and not be uncomfortable because I think in that intensity of death and despair, a lot of us shy away from it because we don't know how to help. And I think that's part of why I'm so intense, honestly, was that time period. It was super formative.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. Is there an advice or some words you would like to share with someone who might be dealing with mental health challenge at the moment? And also one advice that they should not listen to? What would be your take on that?

Allie Michelle: I think mental health, I kind of look at it like different pieces of a pie for myself. There's writing, there's being in nature, there's community and belonging. There's all these different pieces that help me to stay balanced. And it's a practice and it's a journey. There's some days that are still really hard, but I no longer let the hard days win. So sometimes it's really just holding on until you can find what those pieces are for yourself. An advice that I wouldn't take, I don't know. I see a lot of motivational like, "Just do it. Just be happy. Just go. Just run that mile. Just post that on social media" and da, da, da. It's like I guess my advice would be don't run from the darkness so quickly because it can season your soul in a way few things can.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. So thanks for sharing that. I noticed you do have a good relationship with darkness or even death for that matter. Let's talk about darkness. How does that appear for you? How do you handle it?

Allie Michelle: I heard this thing, it was when Alan Watts met Carl Jung, and he was like, "I knew I liked him right away because he smiled like the devil was inside him and he knew it." And to me, it's kind of just the sacred profanity of the only way to actually be good is to know you're capable of evil. And it's kind of like what part of yourself you're feeding. And evil, I think we think of Voldemort or something, but I just look at it as the shadow side, right?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.

Allie Michelle: So whatever tendencies where we miss the mark, which I found out is actually what the word sin means, is just to miss the mark, so I think the more honest you are about those places in yourself, the less you'll act on them.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Do you feel it's an ongoing process to understand the darkness within or go to retreat for a while and come back and you'll be good for a few months? Or is it consistent ongoing work?

Allie Michelle: Oh gosh, no. I'm always checking myself. I think retreats are... They're like very expanding, but then you have to integrate. And that's kind of all it is. It's expansion, integration. I constantly have to check myself and be like, "Why am I actually doing this? Why am I saying yes to this? Why am I meeting this person? What is my intention here? Is it selfish?" I have to be super honest about that because I don't want to form a relationship based around that. So I think I have to catch myself constantly. And the more I do, the easier it is to just automatically know like, "This is how I feel about something."

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, I love that. This reminds me of something I personally wanted to ask you. What's the role of art in all of this darkness, poetry, writing, and what does your creative process look like? I want to take notes on it.

Allie Michelle: Yeah, of course. I think to me art is the middle way. It's like the one place where everything belongs, every dark and ugly bit, every beautiful and ecstatic bliss bit. It's just everything gets to belong there. You can't be too much, you can't be not enough. I think it also is really empowering because you're not a victim if you can transform your pain into something purposeful. So that's kind of my why for it, is it's my way of understanding the world and living compassionately.

In terms of my process, my mom taught me this super young. When I was angry or sad, she'd have me just splatter paint on a wall or throw plates at a wall or something so that I could get that energy out of my body. So from a very young age, she was wisely programming me to put my paint in art instead of vomit it onto other people or internalize it in myself. My artistic process now is very... Sometimes it's writing-based, but a lot of the times if I feel such a strong emotional charge, I need to dance and kind of move and tap into that unspoken language first.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Do you devote a specific time or spontaneous when you would dance or write or indulge in that play?

Allie Michelle: With writing, it has to be the first thing I do in the morning before I get a text, before I let the world in, because I'm still in that in between state where I haven't internalized or consumed any content or information. And so it's just me and my muse. Those first few hours are crucial for me.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Do you plan a day before, that, "Tomorrow morning I'm going to be writing about this"? Or is it just a free flow?

Allie Michelle: I'll usually have a project I'm working on. I mean, sometimes, like yesterday I wrote a poem for the first time in a month because I felt such a strong need to understand something. So that was where it kind of went that day. But a lot of the times I'm working on a fantasy book or something like that. For me, as long as I sit down and I put pen to paper, that's enough. I showed up for my muse. Regardless of if I made a masterpiece or something garbage, at least I showed up.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Do you type or do you write on paper?

Allie Michelle: For journaling, I write on paper. It feels a lot more intimate and I can really express whatever's there. And poetry, also on paper. But writing a novel or anything like that, I have to type it.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Do you keep any supporting tools? I mean, maybe a green tea or putting the phone on airplane mode or closing the door. Are there any specific protocols that's with you every morning that it's a non-negotiable, you have to have these things with you?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, my desk is facing a wall so I can't see what's going on in the house behind me. I always close the doors. I have my cup of coffee. I have an instrumental playlist going because I don't want to hear any words so that I can really use my own. And that's kind of my ritual every morning.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: The instrumental music, is it different every day or random or it's a playlist?

Allie Michelle: It's a playlist I made. I actually just put it on my story this morning. But it's like Hans Zimmer and Ludovico Einaudi and Garth Stevenson, any sort of beautiful composer, instrumentalist. I absolutely love instrumentals. I think that, I don't know, to me it sounds like life and love and everything in between.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, I listen to so much of just background music. No lyrics, nothing. It creates the shift in me, the intensity in me that the song, sometimes they fail to do it. Love that. One last question about the creative process. If you don't mind sharing what time of the morning that feels most cozy and creative for you?

Allie Michelle: Anytime I wake up... When I was in Hawaii, I was waking up with the sun at 6:00 AM, but here it's a little later. Probably around 7:30, 8:00. So I wake up, I have my coffee, and then I go right for about two hours or so. And then I'll switch and do some form of movement or dance before I start working.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: All right. I felt I'm sounding like a bit of Gary V and Tim Ferris asking you very productive questions, but that was so personal. I wanted to know the secret sauce of your creative process. Thank you for sharing. You mentioned your mom, so I was very curious to talk about her. I always bring up the mother question, the parents question because our relationship with family is so interesting, so sacred, so messy. It's a mix of everything, right? Let's talk about your mom. I know she has very solid influence in your journey. Tell me a bit more about her.

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I mean, she's the light of my life. We kind of grew up together. And we started our... I don't know if spiritual journey's the right word, but whatever that was, we started it together. We began meditating at 15 and we'd lay on the floor together and close our eyes and just kind of tap into that blank space. But she really inspires me because she started her whole life over again at 55. She was married 30 years, and she just said, "Nope, it's my turn to live again and do this for me. My kids are grown. They're out of the house." And so she traveled for a year straight and was fire hula-hooping and just seeing Stonehenge in Ireland. I think my favorite thing about her is she's just so committed to full aliveness and has such an wild artist's spirit. I think, I don't know, I'm kind of a mini her in a lot of ways, and I feel very proud to say that. I think some people are afraid to turn into their parents, but I would feel lucky to be like her, I think. Yeah.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Now, someone is going to listen to this and feel or think, "Oh, she's so lucky to have a mother like this. She's so lucky to be in that space." People tell me the same about my relationship with my family, especially with my father. He's my spiritual guru. So I get to hear many words, "You are so lucky you have your father as your guru." But they don't know the work, the effort it takes behind the scenes to maintain that lucky energy, that lovely energy. I'm curious to know if you can share anything at all, the effort it takes to build this kind of relationship, to build this kind of trust and love between you and her.

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't always that way. My family was very dysfunctional and I wouldn't change it for the world. I don't blame them or my upbringing for anything, but it was very dysfunctional. I think why my mom and I have such a good relationship is because we both, I guess, woke up together you could say. We both were doing the work. We were both making such an effort to heal and to be better for each other and to overcome these toxic patterns. And so that's really what it took, was this intentional, "I'm willing to sit in the pain and show that I care about having this conflict right now instead of just avoid you and grow up and get out of the house and not talk to you for 10 years." So we really planted both feet on the ground and stayed in the hard moments. And now it's so much easier because we did that.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm seeing so many dimensions of you, Allie, there is that little Allie I'm seeing. She comes out and she's sharing. There's also this artist, there's also this ancient soul, but also very self-aware soul who understands it's all such a circus and game and I have to learn the rules of the game whether I play the game or not, but I have to understand the BS, the drama, the hypocrisy. How do you handle and manage the softness of being an artist, but also surviving and blooming and becoming successful in this world of writers? It's getting tough day by day as you can probably tell, right?

Allie Michelle: Yeah. I think I was only that softness for the first 23 years of my life. It's only in the past two years that I've been like, "Oh, there is a strength in me" because it's very strong to keep your butt in the chair and show up and write every day and square with your demons of doubt and insecurity and actually write something and give it to the world. It takes strength to be in a long-term relationship and go up against those parts of yourself. There is a fierceness required. I mean, you're all about the goddess. Like Kali, she's such a huge part of that. So I was really working with her the past few years and that sort of energy because I think it is just as important. Otherwise, if you don't have those boundaries, you're kind of just like water and there's a fragility to you where you're of the world but not in it. Whereas, I think the most fun thing in the world is to know like, "Yeah, this is one big messy circus, but I'm going to enjoy the ride as much as I can."

Chandresh Bhardwaj: I'm telling you, you're using the words and language that's just giving me goosebumps. It's taking me to places that I absolutely find myself very healed and very vulnerable. Goddess Kali. We can't move further without going a bit deeper into Goddess Kali now. How did she show up in your journey? So I wasn't even planning or expecting this question, but yeah, please let's hear more about Goddess Kali from you.

Allie Michelle: I mean, she cut off my head, you know?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: She likes to do that, right?

Allie Michelle: Oh yeah. I mean, seriously, my relationship, even like I said, my image on Instagram of being a spiritual teacher, it was like, "Oh, I don't know anything actually. Nevermind." And I felt very humbled by life. It was a year of just that kind of death after death after death and starting to understand what death actually is and the gift that it is because it is that burning down of the house of cards so you could see the stars again. That's what she does. And the burning process is excruciating. But I think the more deaths you go through, the more you realize like, "Oh, I will make it out the other side. This is going to be painful if I don't surrender to it." So I think with her, it's really just being willing to be humbled by life honestly.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. I can tell you, as the audience they're listening to it, they would want to know what was that one element or one advice would you want to give them to being more open to Goddess Kali. Her love and also her fierceness, it comes together. You can't just pick one. What would you tell them? "Do this and she'll open up for you."

Allie Michelle: I wrote this line and it's in the book, it was, "All that destroys you is a gift that reveals the only thing you have left, the part of you that's indestructible." And that's kind of what I feel in my experience that she does in a nutshell, is like you want her to destroy those things because they're not fully real and what's on the other side is so much better.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Well, yeah, there are temples of Shiva and Kali specifically built around cremation grounds in India because they represent the destruction, the end, but the end that also begins something so powerful. I picked up something that I want to... Now that we're talking about the cages, the destructions, something that I picked up, I want to... The golden handcuffs, I use the word holy cage, sacred prison. So when I saw the golden handcuff, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not surprised at this point that Allie and I are navigating such interesting similar dimensions, and yet we have our unique expression." For me, Goddess Kali was, and she still is, such a solid support and force to release the golden handcuffs, to dismantle the golden diamond cages that society will put you in. Can you talk a bit more about what does a golden handcuff look like and how was it for you? If you feel comfortable, then how can someone fully release themselves from it?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I mean, a golden handcuff shows up in so many different ways. Sometimes it's that relationship that's really comfortable and secure, but that it's not a full, yes. You're not fully in it. Sometimes it's that 9:00 to 5:00 job that gives you financial security and it's killing your spirit, but it's comfortable, it's safe, you know what's going to happen for the next three years. So I think there's kind of two opposing desires we have, and it's freedom and security. And she kind of comes in, I think, when we've gone too far into security that it's stifling our growth. And then she takes that sword and smacks the chain and you're like, "Oh my gosh, my life is turning upside down" and it's like, "No, it's turning right side up."

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. And while doing that, did you notice your relationship with boundaries or saying a clear no that started changing as well in the process?

Allie Michelle: Absolutely, because I realized there's just no point in pretending. It takes an enormous amount of energy to pretend not to know what your soul is telling you. And so that's kind of what I mean, is we kind of love our partner, we kind of love our job, we kind of do this until we're kind of living our life, but that's not what the soul wants. And so it's not always linear and that's what's so terrifying is like you have no idea how things are going to turn out. It comes with despair and grief and loss and all of those feelings, but it's like Khalil Gibran says, "Your joy is your sorrow unmasked."

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. There is a lot of unknown that we deal with in life, right? I'm sure it was so much the same for you. How do you handle the unknown? Are you in the unknown space now that the book is out?

Allie Michelle: To be honest, the known terrifies me more than the unknown because I grew up in such chaos and uncertainty. And so for a while, that sort of living like a Sufi where I don't know what's going to happen the next day. I could get on a plane tomorrow. That was how I lived my life for so many years. And right now, I'm in the season of I have a house with a lease and a dog and a partner and a job I'm committed to and just a sense of security I've never had. It's hard sometimes to realize I can find freedom in this too. So for me right now, my growth point is actually being okay with being in one place.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A lot of people find their freedom in moving from one place to another. Some start to feel being rooted in one place is where they will grow. When you were traveling, new perspectives were coming of course, but do you think that was taking you away from the roots in any way? Or was that just a adventurous time and you didn't think much about these things?

Allie Michelle: It was both. I was having these wild experiences like chasing tornadoes and swimming to alligators and seeing the Northern Lights and stories that ultimately made me such a better person and a better writer because I really lived before the world shut down, but 100% was me avoiding myself as well and avoiding any long-term relationships and anything that might come up with that because I got to be an enigma to everyone where it's like, "Oh, where's she off to next?" I didn't get to be a three-dimensional person. And that became very isolating after a while.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. What do you think is missing currently in living with the full yes in a long-term relationship because that's not sexy anymore, the long-term committed relationships? What do you think is missing?

Allie Michelle: I've kind of explained that right now because I've been with my partner for a year. I just read the Four Loves by CS Lewis again, where he talks about Eros versus Agape. Eros is that wild, romantic, passionate love, but it doesn't last because you can't build a life around it. And Agape is that very supportive, sweet, subtle kind of love. I had never had Agape before. It was always that fiery burning passion that explodes. So with this now, I'm realizing I wouldn't have finished my book without this. I wouldn't have created a community with my sister or anything long-lasting that I have without the stability and safety of this relationship. I'm ironically finding more freedom in my art and in these other places. But outside in, it might look like, "Oh, it's just the same flat line," but it's not because internally, so much more is going on.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Do you think it's changing the inner feminine, the inner goddess in you?

Allie Michelle: I do. I think for a while I was very feminine and then I got heartbroken and became very masculine to protect myself. And now I can finally soften back into her again.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Have you learned anything interesting in new about that inner Allie, inner goddess? Anything fun, interesting that you didn't know exist before?

Allie Michelle: Every day I discover a new thing about myself. I'm like, "I just don't know myself like I think I do." It's always changing. I was like that wild jungle goddess that didn't wear shoes for a year, and now I'm in LA and I'm kind of playing with that fiery energy that's a bit more fierce. So I'm realizing the goddess just comes in so many different forms. And I'm sure you could say a lot more about this, and there's probably a lot more symbolic goddesses that accurately represent what I'm saying, but I feel a different aspect of her every day.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. You remind me of Goddess Durga in this moment who's very elegant, feminine and grounded, rooted, but she also has a lion by her side. So when anyone messes with her, she'll unleash the lion. But he stays there with her, but it's not bothering anyone. It's just there, very calm. But the moment someone is poking, she'll unleash that. But at other times, she's very rooted, elegant, sophisticated, putting her wildness in the back burner. But when it's needed, she'll release it. So that's-

Allie Michelle: That's exactly how I feel.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Right? Yeah, I sense it. I feel the feminine energy, the whole buzzword around the divine feminine, it's changing a lot of things around us. I don't know if you know about this, but when Instagram started hashtags, Goddess vibe hashtag was banned. You could not use that hashtag. Because I would write about tantra and I would use the #Goddess vibe. Your post won't be published or they would restrict it. So I had to look it up and they said Goddess vibes, it brings the images that are not compiling with the Instagram community guidelines and so and so. But Goddess vibes was struggling to be out. Eventually now it's out there. But now I see the divine feminine. It has become such an interesting buzzword.

There is also good side of it of course. It's empowering so many women who want to be seen and heard and loved, but also it's bringing up such a capitalistic, commercial, glossy side of the social media where a lot of women also struggle that, "Oh, I don't look like this. I don't have my picture so perfectly taken. So am I not a divine feminine? Or what do I do to cultivate that?" You run We Are Warriors, right? So that's what I understand is all women-based community, right? Could you share a bit about the whole goddess vibe culture, divine feminine culture, and as you see it among the women you work with in We Are Warriors and what is We Are Warriors?

Allie Michelle: Absolutely. I mean, I think part of why I don't use those words or use spiritual buzzwords anymore is because I think it's starting to do what you're saying, where it off puts people of like, "I'm not that, so I could never be that." And that's part of why I focus more on writing, because I think it gets you to the same place in a bit more of a grounded way. We made We Are Warriors because my sister and I, more so her, but she was that ideal standard of beauty on Instagram because she's a model and an actress. I definitely went in and out of that kind of image for a while. But again, we blew up so young. And so we were just posting that for attention or validation or all the things at first. But after seeing the effects on young girls of eating disorders, low self-esteem, feeling a lack of purpose, that was really painful to see and also to admit that we contributed to that.

So we started We Are Warriors during the pandemic because we wanted to take responsibility and counteract it. So it's a community for women. There's over 200 hours of content on there for financial literacy, like spiritual classes, yoga, breathwork, writing, pretty much anything you can think of education wise. But my favorite part is every Friday, me and Alexis sit down with the girls for two hours and we'll be like, "Let's talk about shame. Shame in our bodies, shame in relationships. Let's talk about this." We'll dive into a different topic that they don't really have the space to talk about anywhere else in their lives necessarily. So I don't know. It's the most fulfilling work I've ever done. I love it. I really do.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: So beautiful, honestly. How can someone join it? Is it easy quick link through the website?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, super quick. You could get it for the year or monthly depending on how you feel. Or you could just get individual courses. But I don't know. Personally, I think the live calls are the most special part, so yeah.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Allie, you mentioned this in few different musings directly and directly about the objectification of the feminine or the woman in a relationship. I picked up one particular musing where you wrote, "I'm not her anymore, a doll you can dress up and leave on shelf." I know many women at this point who are dressed up as dolls, sitting on the shelves wanting to get out of it, but can't. The mind is feeling afraid, insecure, fearful. How can they leave the doll behind and step into the fierceness?

Allie Michelle: It's funny. Have you ever read Women Who Run with the Wolves?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: I have read parts of it. It's on my Kindle. I'm terrible reader. So your book is one of those exceptional books I've gone through in the past few days. I'm terrible slow reader. But Woman Who Run with Wolves, it's one of my favorites. I glimpse through it. Every now and then I read pages. But yeah, I totally understand the essence of that book.

Allie Michelle: Yeah, it's that reclamation of the wild woman. She's not the beautiful doll with the porcelain mask and the soft, serene smile. She is willing to make an ugly face and she has teeth. And for a while, I was so that doll. I was the perfect girlfriend who cooked and clean and did everything and was basically a shiny accessory on a past partner's arm, which was all my choice to act that way and play into that because that's how I thought I would get love and that's how I thought I would belong. And I had to be willing to lose everything, that relationship, that part of myself, and be willing to like, "I don't know who I am. This part of me needs to die." And underneath that, I found what real beauty is by being willing to make that ugly face and being willing to be wild and not knowing where I belong. I chose to be lost for a while over a false sense of belonging. I think that is kind of the cost, just like the life that you thought you were supposed to have has to go.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. I think this is such a practical point. I'm glad it's coming from a woman. As I was creating Goddess Rising, one thing that was so consistent among all the goddesses, none of them fit into that standard model of beauty. Like you said, they all had very interesting, unconventional features that would not be counted as beautiful in the mainstream media. When you dig deeper in tantra, it says it's designed that way so that a feminine woman steps into her power without feeling the pressure of looking a certain way or being domesticated in a certain way, or finding acceptance by cooking, cleaning, serving the husband, serving the family in a certain way.

Women do not find that idea to be safe and comfortable, but what you are telling, what you're suggesting is so beautiful, so empowering, willing to lose that life and willing to be lost for a while too. Do you think when you are in that space where you feel lost sometimes that's how you'll find yourself? And if yes, is there a mantra, an advice, a time period they can cling on to or just refer to the, "Okay, I'm lost for a while, but I'll be okay. This is what I should keep doing meanwhile"?

Allie Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I look at lost as a bridge from who we were to who we'll become and you never know how long that bridge is. But I also look back. Those very dark, very scary, kind of lonely times where I didn't know what my purpose was or anything like that, there was something really honest about it because I wasn't trying to belong to someone or be like, "I'm Allie, I'm a poet. I own We Are Warriors. I owned it." There was no, "I am this." It's just that I am. And there's something, like I said, super honest about that. So I guess it's kind of what I was saying about the darkness, is really treasure those time periods because your life could go any possible way, and that is both frightening and also absolutely incredible.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. I know you have given so many wonderful tips and advices. I want to ask you one more question and then yeah, I have something for you. What advice would you give to someone new and upcoming artist? They could be a writer, dancer, painter. What advice they should take and what advice they should just burn out there?

Allie Michelle: I'm about to go on a bit of a rant because there's so many parts to this. First off, just keep going because it's worthwhile and your art is worthwhile and your story is worth telling in whatever form that is, whether that's music or art or dance or writing. And also, you have to be willing to be bad at something before you're good. My first poems, I sounded like Dr. Seuss had a baby with Alan Watts. I'm just looking out at the source rhyming and tossing out existential ideas. But I stayed with it and eventually my friends loved it and my family, and then people I hadn't met. It started to touch people and ripple out because I was willing to love it more than I was hating the struggle of becoming good at it.

The third part of this is making art is very different than the commercial industry. The commercial industry is a lottery. Every day you go, you buy a ticket, maybe your book gets published, maybe you get that movie you want, maybe you book the dance job. It's a crap shoot. Like it's partially who you know or your looks or some random occurrence of luck. And so my whole point is don't weigh your worth on the reaction you get from the industry because it's a lottery. And so just keep going and keep buying your ticket every day.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: No one has ever put it this way. I have a very interesting and very similar perspective with the publishing industry. I think a new author gets stuck in that game, that they want to be published with a certain publisher and if they reject it, my life is fully lost. But it is so much about who you know, how you look, how your entire brand is positioned in that time and space. And that changes everything, but it doesn't say so much about you as an artist. It's about so many other material things, correct?

Allie Michelle: Absolutely. But also you only need one yes, and that is the magic of the lottery, is you can get 500 nos from 500 publishers and then someone will take a chance on you and your whole life changes and suddenly you're a published author. But I guess my point is, and it's so hard to do this, I still struggle with it, try not to place your worth as an artist on the reaction you get from the industry.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: And while you are meeting people, creating art, what you should be doing meanwhile? Like explore different digital spaces to keep the engine running, correct?

Allie Michelle: Yeah. I'm never waiting on anything. If I'm waiting on a publisher to say yes, I'm still writing other things or I'm taking a dance class. The energy's always moving because if you're in that energy, you're more likely to manifest a yes, in my opinion.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: I love that, and I agree. That covers all my curiosities, Allie. Is there something I didn't ask you and I should have asked? Anything that you want to talk about before we wrap up?

Allie Michelle: No, but I have a question for you if that's okay.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: My God, tell me.

Allie Michelle: Because you're such a... You study the goddess so much, what is something that you'd want women to know about her?

Chandresh Bhardwaj: About goddesses, I would want them to know goddess is as conventional as it gets. The media has defined, suppressed, tamed, domesticated the idea of a goddess, of a feminine and it keeps on changing. When the media changes, the idea changes. But your worth, your goddessness, your divinity does not depend on how you are in your appearance or how you are in your relationships too. Everything has been so suppressed, controlled, and wired to fit into the norms of society. And for me, goddess does not fit into the lens of reputation, the lens of the social norms, the lens of even religion, the family narrative.

A true goddess will supremely disappoint many voices around her because she's not going to fit into any of those expectations or perspectives. The human goddesses that I know, they have disappointed many important voices in their life and they continue to do so. But I always suggest do it with love. You are going to disappoint, do it with love. Because when you do it with anger, it burns your blood, it gets ugly. But when you do it with love, you learn a new skillset, how to claim that innner goddess, but with more love and more compassion. I feel that changes others also who are trying to oppress you, who are trying to control you. Because there is power in love, I strongly feel it doesn't matter how terrible situation gets. Love, right intention, it has so much power, so much strength in it.

Allie Michelle: I love that. Disappoint with love. That's such a good line.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. I personally go with conscious disobedience. You disobey, but do it with consciousness. But this one, yeah, the one I just said, which I already forgot, that showed up in this conversation. Yeah, thanks for asking. That was wonderful question. And before we sign off, how can people connect to you? I'm going to put the We Are Warriors link, but yeah, tell me about your links.

Allie Michelle: It's pretty much mostly Instagram. I tried TikTok, but I can't stand it honestly. So it's just Instagram. It's where most of my poetry is. All my books are anywhere books are sold. You can just look up Allie Michelle, the new one's The Words Left Unspoken. But yeah, that's pretty much it. Just Allie Michelle.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: Awesome. Thank you, Allie. So wonderful and so healing. Every minute of this was healing. Thank you.

Allie Michelle: Thank you so much. This is such a beautiful conversation.

Chandresh Bhardwaj: May the teachings of tantra continue to guide you and heal you. And I hope Leela Gurukul helps you to unlearn the world and embrace the unknown mystical possibility unfolding for you. To support this podcast, share it among the seekers who are ready for the next step in their spiritual path.

Useful Links

Chandresh's YouTube Channel

Goddess Rising Program

Private Guidance Program with Chandresh

Buy the book - Break the Norms

Instagram: @cbmeditates