Conversation with Seekers: Divine Feminine and Financial Independence w/ Barjdeep
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In this episode of Conversation with Seekers, Chandresh sat down with a fellow seeker, Barjdeep. Barjdeep and Chandresh have facilitated meditation gatherings for many years, and she is also a part of the Leela school. Something that makes Barjdeep’s journey so special is her balance between a thriving career on Wall Street and continuing to keep in touch with her inner work. The two sat down to record this conversation in March of 2022, prior to Roe vs. Wade being overturned. We hope this episode brings insights into the divine feminine journey and path toward conscious abundance.
More about Barjdeep:
Barjdeep has over a decade of investment experience and focuses her days on investing in private markets (venture capital, buyouts, and private real assets) for non-profit institutional investors. She holds an MBA from the Yale School of Management and MS (Mathematical Finance) and BS (Finance) degrees from Rutgers University, New Brunswick. She is also a CFA®️ Charterholder.
Barjdeep is grateful for her spiritual journey and the guidance and growth that she has received through it. Her passion for gender equity is one of the many things that led her on her spiritual journey. From a young age, Barjdeep has been interested in the power that financial independence can have to transform individual lives and organizations.
When she is not investing or meditating, Barjdeep enjoys spending time in nature and traveling to new places. She lives in New York.
Episode Transcript
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Namaste everyone. I hope you're feeling safe, relaxed, happy, wherever you are. I want to express my gratitude for the amazing feedback, and so much love that you are giving to the conversation with seekers series. As you know, my intention with the series was to bring up the seekers, people who may not be doing the spiritual work through this confined label or box, but they are contributing to the collective consciousness, and in even more unconventional, creative ways. I'd rather have you work in Wall Street, or filming a movie, or working as an accountant, and still connected to your spiritual practice, than you are running out to India, Bali, wherever you go, and then come back and then realize, oh, the mess is still there. I genuinely believe the future of spirituality belongs to those who are very much in the world, but not identified by the chaos of the world.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: The future belongs to those who are in the belly of the beast, but not eaten by the beast. This is the kind of spirituality I relate to, that you could be doing any professional work out there, which may not be labeled as spiritual work, but you're doing your dharma by showing up for that work. And when you come back to yourself, you are connected to your meditation practice. This is for me, practical, empowering, and so inspiring. And our guest today represents, embodies that spirit so beautifully.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: The guest today is Barjdeep. Barjdeep is a special guest for many reasons. One of the reason is she and I, we have done meditations under the same teacher for many years. There have been events where sometimes she facilitates the meditations, sometimes I facilitate. And when she joined the Leela school, I was just honored, happy that she's going to bring in a new experience to the Leela journey. And Barjdeep is not your Reiki healer or a psychic based in Bali. I'm going to share a little bit about who Barjdeep is. And my genuine hope is she'll inspire you as much her journey inspires me Barjdeep has over a decade of investment experience and she focuses her days on investing in private markets like venture capital buyouts, private real estate. And she does that for non-profit institutional investors. She holds an MBA from the Yale School of Management and MS mathematical finance and BS in finance degree from Rutgers University, New Brunswick. She's also a CFA Chartholder.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Now you may not be expecting a finance genius to be in the Leela podcast, but that's exactly what the Leela school is all about. I am selfishly hungry, ready, curious for the seekers like Barjdeep, because they represent the present and the future of spirituality for me. This is the kind of spirituality I hope Leela will inspire and empower everyone to go for. When you listen to my conversation with Barjdeep, you'll realize she's going for the practicality in spirituality. She's grateful for her spiritual journey and the guidance and the growth that she has received through it. Her passion for gender equality is one of the many things that has led her to her spiritual path. And from a young age, Barjdeep has been interested in the power that financial independence can have to transform individual lives and organizations. And when she's not investing or meditating, Barjdeep tells me she enjoys spending time in nature and traveling to new places. She lives in New York. And today you'll be hearing my conversation with her.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Relax, have a cup of tea, your favorite juice, your favorite green tea, or whatever you like to drink while listening to this podcast. I hope you enjoy it. I hope it inspires you. Do let me know after you listen to it how that feels for you. I am Chandresh Bhardwaj and this is Leela Gurukul. Hi Barjdeep, thank you for coming to Leela Gurukul. I'm excited for our conversation. How are you feeling today?
Barjdeep Kaur: Hi Chandresh. Thanks for having me. I'm feeling good. Feeling good, yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. So I feel let's start with journey of Barjdeep. I would love for the listeners to know who's Barjdeep, what's her background story, because I feel it plays pretty significant role in who you are today, why you do what you do. When I first heard directly from you, it never left my mind. So whatever you feel comfortable in sharing aspects of your journey and story, I would love to know.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. I mean, I don't know where to start. I've always been a lot about authenticity, maybe sometimes to a fault. I think I've, like many people, navigated a lot of different roles. I grew up as a first generation immigrant in the US, so trying to be the first child to grow up outside of India in America. And that comes with a lot of pressures. Everyone is watching this kid and is thinking about, "Oh my God, how is she going to turn out? What is she going to do?" And trying to be true to myself throughout that process. I think one of the things that ... And it also has been a great journey and a great experience because that led me to really experiment and think about like, "What do I want to take from each culture to make this life very fruitful and better?" Because that's what my parents came here for. Right? They came to give their children opportunity and have the next generation live a better life. Although my family also lived a great life in India as well.
Barjdeep Kaur: And I think a lot of it, I actually, in some ways got from my mom and dad. My dad, my family comes from landowners in India. And my parents, my family, could have very easily lived a very easy life in India and just, not very easy, but a comfortable life. But instead, they chose to uproot everything when they really didn't have to financially for financial reasons. And they decided to move here. But then I always felt like this thing, like, "Okay, what can I do to make sure that my life really builds upon the things that they have done?"
Barjdeep Kaur: And then on top of that you layer things like we all have so many roles to play and the roles, in many ways, I feel like are even more limiting or pronounced for women and girls. And trying to navigate all these roles, all these pressures, and also being true to myself, I think that was like the first challenge that I really faced. And I think that has really formed me and shaped me as a person. So it's not a very clear answer as to who Barjdeep is, but perhaps where she came from.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. When did you leave India?
Barjdeep Kaur: I was a toddler.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Okay. Okay. Oh-
Barjdeep Kaur: So I don't have any memory of India per se. My first childhood memories are of the US, but I was not born here.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: OK. And I'm always curious to understand how the different cities or countries shape our life. I feel India shaped up my journey in so many ways, but I became a very different person when I moved from India to New York. And I feel I became completely different or so much different and evolved when I moved to LA from New York. And I always see the cities shape up your story and they teach you many lessons. Is there a particular lesson that you feel you learned from the Indian culture and any valuable lesson you learned growing up here? We'll talk about the positive, like anything good that you really adopted from both cultures?
Barjdeep Kaur: I think what I really saw in my family and my parents was they worked so hard to maintain roots. And it also, I think has led to my interest in spirituality, where I from a young age was always trying to understand, like, "What are my roots? Where do I come from?" I remember growing up in the US and remembering, hearing all these stories about how Diwali is fascinating in India and how it's like celebrated so well. And I remember growing up here in the nineties. And New York is a very different place now, New York, New Jersey, and Diwali is celebrated with a lot of pomp and circumstance, but not back then. And I remember just that longing [inaudible 00:09:33] family. And when my parents moved here, they didn't have a lot of extended family around them. And they missed it so much. So I think that deep connection with family and being there for each other, always showing up, I think that has been one of my best lessons from Indian culture and from my upbringing.
Barjdeep Kaur: And then from American culture, I remember one of my earliest memories in school. And my elementary school had this motto of something like, "Be the best you can be." And I still vividly remember going to school every day and just really ingraining that in myself. And I saw that in my family growing up. You know what the immigrant life is. You take no days off. You're constantly working. There's no vacations. You're just really trying to do the best you can every single day. And I think I really ingrained that in myself and I didn't, at least at that time in my life, I did not see a difference between oh, boys can be the best they can be, or girls can be the best they can be. I was just like, "I'm going to be the best I can be, because that's where I am. And that's what I'm going to do." So in a nutshell, I think that's what it is.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, taking no days off. It's hitting me a lot recently. I think a student in the Leela group, they talked about different mindsets, how they influence our hard work, our sincerity. And I recall this memory when I moved from India to New York. I would stop by at Jackson Heights because dad's office was in Jackson Heights and I would, from Manhattan, from college, I'll just stop by there. And I noticed one thing. In those days, every store in Jackson Heights was doing phenomenal business. They were all doing really well.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And second thing I noticed they never took a day off. They were open every single day. I could be stopping by there at 7:30 AM or 9:00 PM. The stores were open. And they were not half open. They were like full lights. People were running in and out. It was like they felt if they take a day off or even five hours off, they'll miss out on something. Even after making so much money, assuring security for the family, still this mindset was there, that no days off is the policy. Do you think it's ... I mean, now we talk a lot about taking days off, resetting, recharging. What's your relationship with it right now with this seven day hardworking mindset?
Barjdeep Kaur: Well, I'm very grateful to not have to do that. I'm grateful to have weekends off in the sense that at least I don't have to take meetings. I'm checking emails and stuff, but I really do think it's so important to recharge, so, so important to recharge, and just go away and refresh the mindset. And I've tried to lead my family towards the path of this or get them to get there. And I think they are. I mean, obviously they certainly take days off now, but my parents are also getting older. Like both of us, our parents are getting older. But my own relationship with is you have to recharge.
Barjdeep Kaur: I am very much a work hard, play hard kind of a person in terms of one of the things that I really like to do is travel. So I make sure that if I've been working really hard, I've always made sure, pre-COVID of course, that I take those trips that I really want to take. And I do things in my time off that recharge me and refresh me. But you just come back with such a fresh perspective when you're recharged and you're rested.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I agree. You talked about roots Barjdeep, and I first want to touch the element of roots. And then I want to touch the topic of feminine, because I know it's very important to you. So the people who are listening, if they are listening to this podcast for a while, they know I talk a lot about roots. I feel you have to understand your roots. You have to be able to heal the rotten roots and nurture them, give them water. And the roots have this capability to renew, recharge, and restore themselves. What's your relationship with the word itself, roots? When was the first time you started feeling the importance of it, and what it means to you right now?
Barjdeep Kaur: That's a really good question. I think I felt the importance of it from a very young age because of, it's been very important for my family. And a big part of my upbringing.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I see.
Barjdeep Kaur: I'm not so sure that ... Sometimes people can get very ingrained in their roots and appeasing their roots in certain ways, if I can say that.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.
Barjdeep Kaur: And I think that has been one of the challenges in my spiritual journey where finding a way to be authentic to yourself, but also really connecting with your roots and healing them. And I do feel like I'm at a very good place now where I have done that, but it has not been this positive place along the way. And I think a lot of times when we think about our roots, people think a lot about their ancestors, and they think about their familial history, and they feel this very strong bond to this familial history, and continuing down that path of it. But it can be very hard to at times also heal your roots, stay true to yourself, and then build a positive relationship with them.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is a challenge I'm witnessing in many seekers. When I talk about roots, of course, the mind starts to think about ancestors. And then there's a lot of, I don't know, pain, trauma suffering, probably that starts to show up. And also people feel if I take on a very new creative path, am I cheating on my ancestors? Is it wrong? Am I not going to get their blessings? I mean, you work in finance and I don't think your ancestors worked in finance in India. Right?
Barjdeep Kaur: No.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And how do you heal? Did you feel this is a completely new path I'm going into? And was there a family support to this path? Or did they also question like, "Are you going to be a Wall Streeter now, what's going on?"
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah, definitely some of the latter. I think it was also because there was not a lot of awareness. What is actually investments, what is finance? And I don't come from a very studious family. I, being the studious one, everyone was like, "Oh my God, she's going to be the doctor."
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, of course.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. And I shattered that quite quickly. It was like, "No, I really want to follow something that I am passionate about. And I just, I don't think I would be able to give my all to medicine." And although it's a very noble path and there certainly have been times in my career where I've been like, "Maybe I should have been the doctor. Maybe I should have listen to my parents." But I think the way I've connected it to my roots is that I do think money plays a very important role in our life. And money is the thing that affords independence. If you think about power imbalance, or you even think about empowering women, as soon as they have a means of income of their own, or financial stability, they can think about other things like providing for their family and independence for themselves, or whatnot.
Barjdeep Kaur: So I connected into finance in the way that I think it's been the mode of learning about this thing that is so powerful in the world, and also putting it to better use. So I think one of the things that I have struggled on with in my career is like, "Okay, I'm in finance. I'm in investments. Where is my work going?" And one of the things I'm very excited about is right now, I work for a firm called Cambridge Associates, where bulk of my work goes towards helping nonprofit investment pools grow.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Nice.
Barjdeep Kaur: And that's very empowering. And another thing that's helped me connect this work to my roots or to who I am as a person, has been that we need more people in this industry. We need different kinds of people in this industry. And there have certainly been times in my career where I have thought about leaving finance because it didn't feel very authentically connecting to my values at certain points. But I'm very grateful that I have been able to find work in this industry that allows me to stay engaged with it, and then also make a positive impact while doing that. So long-winded answer, I'm not sure if I answered your question directly, but I feel like in some ways, by studying this or working in the field of money, in the field of investments, I'm somehow bringing empowerment to groups that always did not have it. And I do that in some ways in my personal life. I try to help the people around me understand investments and money better. And I think that is also deeply valuable to my roots.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: That's the word I was thinking when you started talking. I felt there's a lot of empowerment surrounding you. And that's what you lead with. And I feel understanding money much deeper in its concept and how it functions. It gave you a lot of new perspective, empowerment, and that's what you're trying to teach others. This is something I feel very strongly to talk about, the concept of money. I feel in spirituality, the general idea is people don't want to talk about money. They somehow celebrate poverty. I know for sure if tomorrow Instagram pictures show me on the street, having just two things, I will be celebrated as a teacher. They're like, "Oh my God, he's so selfless. He's just sleeping on the streets now." And just because he doesn't want to take money from anyone.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I also, I've noticed people have such an uncomfortable relationship with money. So if I declare I hate money as a spiritual teacher, people will be inclined toward me, because they're like, "Oh, it's something we are fighting with every day. It's an evil. So he has sort of got rid of that evil." So they start inclined toward a voice who kind of validates that narrative. Can you talk a little bit about just the function of money in itself, how your relationship shifted with it? I think as an Indian immigrant, a lot of people struggle with it. I mean, I think currently almost everyone I know, they're Indian, non-Indians, immigrant, non-immigrant, everyone struggles with the function of money. I would love to know what's your take on it, just the word money itself?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. You raise a very good point. There's, for some reason this negative connotation with money. I have never ascribed to that view. I think I'll start with two observations that I made when I was very young. One., That money is a great enabler. I saw as my parents became more and more financially secure in the US, their lives became so much less stressful, and our lives became less stressful. And we were able to focus on bigger things and really make the progress that we wanted to make. And then the second thing I realized was that, or I have observed throughout my life, and I think this is very, very true, money brings with it decision making power.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I agree.
Barjdeep Kaur: And the way I decided to apply this to my life was that I want decision making power over my life. And for that, I always will be financially independent as soon as possible. And that was one of the reasons why I decided not to be a doctor, because I felt like, "Oh my God, I'm going to be in med school for eight plus years. I'm just going to be extending my adolescence forever." And I've always viewed money in this positive way. I do think you have to balance things. Right? One of the things I really like about tantra is you can balance having a practical life and a spiritual life. And that balance brings with it a lot of challenges. Actually it's so much easier to just forget everything, become an aesthetic and go, I don't know, roam the world and say like, "I'm not going to live in the practical world and I'm just going to meditate under a tree or whatever." But it's much harder to live a full life and find time for spirituality. But that requires a lot of balance.
Barjdeep Kaur: And I think money is the same thing. Unfortunately there are situations where money becomes this worshiped thing and it leads greed. It leads to negative things like that. And I think our society focuses too much on that aspect. But if we think about it in the sense of how much empowerment money can bring and how much decision making power, when each individual feels like, "Okay, I earning my keep and because I'm earning my keep, I can make the decisions of my life I take my life in the direction that I want to take it. That is so empowering.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: It is. Yeah and I love you brought in tantra in the money conversation, because I think for me also, this was such a sort of a revolutionary way of looking at money. No spiritual practice that we have read, learned, talked about money, except tantra. And tantra doesn't tell you, oh, you should be making money. It's so important. It says balance, right, with awareness. And there are practices in tantra like Shree Yantra that we have meditated on so many times. The whole concept of Shree Yantra is the balance of material abundance and the spiritual growth. The balance of both is what a wholesome life is all about really. Is there any word of advice you would like to share for people who are stuck between the spiritual pursuit and making money surviving? Is there anything you want to share about that, how to balance the boat?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. I think I'll actually mention something that I remember reading in your book, that you really do have to solve the practical problems of your life before you can get to a certain point about thinking about spiritual progress. And there's nothing wrong with that. You need to make sure that you can pay your bills on time and just not have to worry about the basic things. But you can still be spiritual along the process. And you and I have obviously talked about the power of sankalp so much and the power of positive thinking. And that can help with all of these challenges where you're struggling between money and spirituality, either on one spectrum where you don't have enough of money. And then if you don't have enough of money, the key challenge I think you face with is that, one you struggle to provide for yourself.
Barjdeep Kaur: And also, your resources are so constrained. Your time is constrained. You have to do everything yourself. Your thinking is constrained. You can't allow yourself the time and space to think about the things that you need to do to improve your experience, or improve your spirituality as a person. But then on the other side, you have too much of it and it's leading to negative aspects. That also needs to be balanced and managed true. But you can thoughtfully do that with spirituality.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. I think the audience would be, I hope they're curious. And they open their heart and awareness to the concept of spirituality and money with the same openness. That's so important. And-
Barjdeep Kaur: It's so important. And one more thing I wanted to say on that is this thing that you and I think have been taught, and we have learned and accepted is that, you cannot let go of something if you don't have habit. So if you don't have material abundance, you can't decide that, "Oh, I don't need this anymore." Well have it first. Have the experience. Live through it. And then decide. Let yourself experiment in that way.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, exactly. I think this is such an important lesson that I learned, that you learned, that you can just renounce the world. First under understand the silliness of the world. Play in it, taste every vibe, every season of it. And then you can say, either you like it, you love it, or you don't, and you can renounce it. But I think it's the fear, the mind that makes us want to run away from certain things. And we declare this is my spirituality, but it's not. It's escapism at its best. Right? One thing that I've noticed Barjdeep in your journey as a seeker is the importance of sankalp intention. I think it has grown so much in the past few years, because the way you would talk about sankalp, I can see you believe in it so much now than ever before. Let's talk about that. What is sankalp in your words and how you navigate it now?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah, yeah. I think my belief in sankalp I think dates back to when I was a little girl. And well, before I went down this path of spirituality, I remember being a little girl and you talk a lot about roles. And we have in so many cultures, these roles that girls and women should ascribe to and the duties that they need to fulfill and throughout their existence in life. But I always had this very strong feeling, ever since, as far as I can remember of, I want to have a career. I want to study really hard. And I used to always picture myself, wheeling around a little suitcase in an airport.
Barjdeep Kaur: I always had this thought as far as I can remember. And I always wanted to travel. All these things were crystal clear. And I lived through my first couple of decades of my life without really knowing how this was going to happen. And there were certainly moments when I didn't believe so much, but for the vast majority, 90% of the time I believed in this. And I felt like, however hard it may be. I think the world will manifest this for me. And I will work towards this goal. And I remember growing up, I'm the first person in my family to go to college in the US, the first person to really have a corporate career.
Barjdeep Kaur: And all the things that we have been taught in spirituality is like, "Don't question how it's going to happen. Just think about, visualize what you want to happen. I was doing all these things before I really led down the path of spirituality. But then when I started becoming spiritual and I met my guru, it became much more concrete and it became a much more, oh my God, this is what I've been doing all along. There is a rhyme and reason to this. Although when I think back to the story, this also feeds into the whole idea of when we are children, we are so innocent in the world. And we are so connected to our inner deep self. But as we navigate the world, we somehow lose that connection. And there came a point in my life where I did lose that connection. But then that was when I formally, I think led into this, my spiritual journey.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. We share the same guru. So when you talk about these things, yeah, I feel, yes. I'm going back to my memory as well. This is such an important concept that we have learned. How did spirituality became so important to you? Was it also part of family or did you connect super strongly in the past few years to it?
Barjdeep Kaur: I think there were a few catalysts that happened that led me into spirituality. I think I was always spiritual, but there came a point in my life. I think this is about 10 years ago now where I was very deep in depression. And I think I went from being someone who was so connected to the sankalp energy, without even knowing it, but to someone who was quite depressed and almost atheist, if I may say. And I really needed something to help me figure out how I could live the life that I want to live while playing the role that I need to play. And I think that's one of the core purposes that spirituality has played in my life. It helped me discover myself, be true to myself, be confident in myself, but then also pursue the goals that I want to pursue, be there for the people that I want to be there for, while staying true to myself. I think that is really the hardest part. So many, we ... It's so easy to lose who you are while you're playing all these roles in life.
Barjdeep Kaur: And then there were, I think, I don't know if I would've connected to another school of thought besides tantra, because of this balance between the material and the spiritual world, because I've always known that I do want to experience the world for everything that it is. And I always felt like as a woman, I want to make sure I get that experience because going back to roots, we observe women of prior generations and they've not always had that experience of being able to experience the world in a full way. And I've always wanted that for myself to ensure that I can do that. And then the way tantra connects with the divine feminine. That I think really did it for me. I was like, "Wow." blew my mind.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I'm saving the divine feminine for the last, because I know it's like anyone who follows you on Instagram, they know how much you believe in the women empowerment and the divine feminine. I think what the Wall Street calls, woman empowerment, tantra says it's divine feminine, so it's the same concept.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: One thing I want to ask you Barjdeep, we talked about sankalp intention, all such good wise things. And then we talked about depression, mental health. I'm glad you mentioned it because a lot of people think if you meditate, if you understand these tantra concepts, you are immune from all the depression, all the mental health challenges. But the truth is we are still very fragile. It can happen to anyone.
Barjdeep Kaur: Oh yes, mm-hmm.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: People like to believe the lives of the spiritual seekers, teachers, it's so perfect, nothing ever happens. But you kind of just broke that myth that no, depression can happen to anyone. Do you feel you can still, if you are not keeping up to your spiritual practice, you can still fall into that darkness. Do you still fear that, or do you feel pretty solid about it?
Barjdeep Kaur: I think you still go through ups and downs, but I think spirituality has given me this foundation where I don't think I would fall so deep again. And that foundation is daily practice, it's maintaining discipline and doing the things, showing up for my spirituality regularly. And that's very, very important as you know. But I really do want to say, one of the things that I wrote down when I was thinking about our conversation was that I think this is so true, that spirituality is not a journey for the faint of heart. And it's also not a journey for the stone hearted. You have to maintain this balance of being relentlessly strong, but then also being sensitive. And that combination can sometimes lead you to getting hurt in ways that perhaps someone who is not spiritual, they can put up a wall and they may not be open to that kind of hurt, because you become this very openly loving person.
Barjdeep Kaur: You really go into love in such a deep way. But one of the things that you say is, people can only meet you at the level that they are at. Right? I may be rephrasing. It's not the exact quote. But sometimes you forget that not everyone is going through the same journey as you.
Barjdeep Kaur: And if you are being so unconditionally loving and open and vulnerable, the world may not be ready for that. Or the situations around you may not be ready for that. So I don't think I would go into such a deep depression, but I also think going back to something that you said about earlier, spirituality is not just about being calm and being meditative. I've had people come up to me and say, "You meditate every day. You should be more calm. How are you so energetic and so ..." I obviously get angry. "How are you getting excited? You should be calmer." And I'm like, "I don't think that's what spirituality is about." That's not the purpose of it. For me, the purpose is to be myself fully. And if that means I'm a raging, I don't know what the right word would be, but a raging person one day and a very calm person in another moment, that's what it is.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I agree. I feel if there was a supplement of spirituality and you and I drink it, that I'll become more of me and you'll become more of you. But you will not become me. I'll not become you. But I think that's where people get it wrong, that if you meditate, you'll become just calm. You'll just become some Zen Buddha kind of person. No, but you become you. You come back to who you always were. The masks start to peel off. That's what happens.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: One thing I want to bring it here Barjdeep, you have been part of Leela. You are part of Leela. You went through the program. You understand tantra. But at the same time, you have also been much more consistent, solid part of our guru's teachings. You assist him in the meditations, you translate so much of his stuff in English. You understand his one word and you can expand like a whole page on it. Is there a difference that you notice between the traditional teachings and the modern spirituality? What's your take on this? Do you feel they'll ever meet, or they're already meeting? What's going on with the traditional versus the modern spirituality?
Barjdeep Kaur: Hmm. I think they at the core are the same thing. And I think one of the things I have loved about my spiritual experience, and I think that allowed me to go very deeply into it is I did not have to follow any tradition. I took it for what I wanted it to be. And it's great that I found a path that has so deeply resonated with me. And then between navigating both Leela and CSJ, I've taken this perspective I think, with my education and everything. I just want to learn from every angle possible. And I think that when we see information repeated in different ways or presented in different ways, perhaps that's the right word, it just clicks. I've done your who am I meditation so many times. I've done it live with you. I've done it through the Leela experience. And it still deeply resonates every single time. but those same messages also have come through CSJ.
Barjdeep Kaur: So it's not like the core is very different. I think for me, it's been, I do feel like they are one and the same and they [inaudible 00:36:12] together if we look at the roots of it. But I think that may also be because of my own journey. I continue to maintain a lot of our roots in my daily life. But then if you look at me and my perspectives on the world, they're very modern. So I like to see both of them gel in my life anyway.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, I feel they begin at the same point and they also conclude at the same point, but the journey becomes very unique and interesting in its own way.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Let's talk tantra a little bit more, because I think through tantra we will also touch the devi energy, divine feminine.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yep.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: How tantra became so relevant to you? Why do you feel it continues to be so important in your growth? I can tell now you love the energy of it. Now you're not just embracing it as a concept, but you know it, you feel it. Let's talk more about it in your words.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. It's really being able to ... Actually, before I start talking about that, I think most of us are initiated into spirituality or religion through organized religion. And one of the things that I think organized religion could do better is talk about, connect with the practical challenges of life, and show us how spirituality can make us stronger to face them. And that's particularly the thing that I think tantra does really well. It does not say you must get married or you must not get married. It very much leaves it to you, the path you want to take. You must be a vegetarian. You must not be a vegetarian. You must do this. You must not do that. And I think the thing about me is the people who know me very closely and they look at how I've lived my life, it's actually quite traditional. I'm a vegetarian. I've been very simple in my romantic relationships, quite traditional in many ways, and have just like, my life has been family professional, and some of my interests and that's about it, and spirituality. But then my thought process is so open minded.
Barjdeep Kaur: If someone says, they're talking about living their life in a very non-traditional kind of way, I'm like, "Oh, that's great. If it's working for you, that's awesome. I'm so happy for you." I think tantra just aligns so much with that for me. And that's one of the reasons why I've just connected so deeply with it.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, I feel there is so much freedom in the tantra playground.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yes. That's the right word freedom.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Right?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And that's the beauty of it. And that's where also people would start to take it for granted. And I feel where you and I got saved from the exploitation in tantra was pretty much the role of the teacher, the mentorship. If there was no teacher and we were still the tantra students, things would've gone really crazy, because it's freedom. We don't know how to handle freedom. And the reason you are so connected to roots and you are channeling tantra in such a mindful way, because there is someone to constantly puncture your ego. You know?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yes.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Keeping you in check. Honestly, I get scared about thinking about what would I have been if there was no teacher, no CSJ in my life. Things would have been so interesting.
Barjdeep Kaur: Oh yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, it's crazy. And you've been mentioned about how the divine feminine kind of changed your journey in tantra even more. And you talk a lot about woman empowerment, you believe in it so much. And I see you interacting with the little girls who show up in our sadhana, in our rituals. And I can see the care you have for them. You are like, you want them to win. And they also look up to you. Do you see little Barjdeep in them? Do you feel you want to be like there for them when they need a mentor? Let's talk about the role of feminine energy in your life.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. That's a very deep question. You know me quite well. And I think women and girls and females are one of the greatest untapped resources in the world. And there's so much research that backs this up, so much research. Actually, one of my colleagues wrote a piece about Gender Lens Investing. And there's so many tidbits of the economic impact that could happen if we were to involve women more in the economy. And that really deeply resonates with me. I think it also came from my own experience growing up.
Barjdeep Kaur: You talk a lot about this in your book and in your work. There's so many roles. This happens to men and women, people young and old. Society, culture conditioning, all of these things come up with these roles that we must fulfill. But they don't think about if this person makes sense for this role. And some of that happened to me in the sense that when I was growing up, the expectations was very much girls get educated to become desirable brides. And this is your purpose in life. This is your role in life. And I very much felt like I have so much more to offer. And I also want to experience the world in a much more full way. I think I can do all those things. I can fulfill those roles, but I also have so much more. So I deeply believe that I want to see the next generation, make sure that I can do whatever I can so that they can experience the world in a very full way, because it's so rewarding. I've had that experience and I'm so grateful for it.
Barjdeep Kaur: And then the divine feminine, it's so funny that we're talking about this right now, because it brings me back to one of my ... I studied finance in undergrad and I decided to do a double major in psychology, but I was like this education buffet mindset that I've had my whole life. So if Leela is doing, is talking, is teaching a conscious meditation, I want to go learn that. Happening at CSJ, I'm definitely learning that too. I'll learn from every single angle. So then I decided in undergrad that I was going to take every class under the sun that I was interested in. And one of the classes I took was about women and gender studies. And one of the first lessons that my professor taught was that one of the very subtle ways, or subtle and also visible ways, that women are not equal in the world is that we have this construct of God. And historically life that's been centered so much around God in cultures. And the concept of God in Western civilization or most of the world is male.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.
Barjdeep Kaur: So that lesson stuck with me so much. But then when I came to CSJ and learning from our guru, this concept of a divine feminine resonated so much with me. And you look at a woman when she's a mother, she'll do anything for her child. She'll turn around the world for her child. And even, she can move mountains on her own for her own life and et cetera. So I just connected so deeply with that. And it was just so fulfilling to find the feminine revered and celebrated in the world. I wasn't sure that I would ever see that. When I saw that I was like, "Oh my God."
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Right?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: How did ... I can ask you this question because we have participated in these rituals. Did your relationship with Maa Kali, Goddess Kali, change over the years? Or was there an earlier perception that shifted as you got deeper into tantra?
Barjdeep Kaur: I'm sure there was a shift, but it's almost like, it's funny, I sometimes talk to my family about this, my sisters especially. They ask me about things that happened in our life, our lives together, right before I went into depression and around that time. And the healing that I have been through, it's almost like it's just erased those memories. So it's very hard for me to remember what it was like in the beginning. And I'm grateful for that healing, because I'm not sure I would be able to grow and live with that pain inside me. But I'm not sure I can answer your question well enough because of that.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. One thing I was, it just came to my mind before our conversation. I was just having my morning coffee and I was thinking about mind. It's some blend of memory, imagination, identity. And the way I have always looked at Maa Kali's healing and her work. She'll pretty much dismantle the old mindset and kind of rewire the whole thing.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And when someone looks at through Guruji, through in my own circle, I have so many amazing expert astrologers. And they look at my chart and they were like, "In your childhood, you must have gone through some really crazy times." And they reminded me of the times that I have no memory of. They were like, "Oh, you, from the age of so and so, some crazy stuff must have happened." And I'm like, "I have memory of so many amazing things for those years you're talking about, but I can't recall the particular thing you are pointing out." And it's my experience with so many amazing expert genius astrologers. They start talking with so much compassion about those painful times. I'm like, "I can't recall the hurt, the suffering of those times." I can recall the times, but there's no memory of hurt or suffering. And I'm not even on some special weed from LA that I've kind of erased those memories.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I genuinely feel, this is what this work of Maa Kali is all about. And when you read the most amazing books on Maa Kali, they talk about destruction of the mind, and the reason she's so dark, because she takes your darkness and that's when the magic, the new identity starts to happen. I have seen that new identity in me and not once, but many times. I've seen that in you. I've seen that in my own father, you know, our Guru. I've seen that in so many people who are ardent meditators of Maa Kali. It's fascinating. You are also pointing out the same thing that I was thinking this morning.
Barjdeep Kaur: I am so glad we had this conversation, because there have been so many moments where my sisters have looked at me and they're like, "How can you not remember?" Because I am known for my memory. I have very good memory, very sharp memory.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Me too. Same here.
Barjdeep Kaur: And I just look at them. I'm like, "I can't remember it." And I know why it is that I don't remember it. And they know too, but it's just so unbelievable that I, the person who remembers every detail for years to come have forgotten.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I remember the silliest, funniest things of my childhood, everything. And it's an inside joke in the family, Chandresh never forgets anything. He will always remember. But these memories that others remind me of, I can't think about them.
Barjdeep Kaur: I agree, it's the same for me. I remember the positive things, the happy things. And when my parents moved out of my childhood home in New Jersey, they found, my mom found a lot of my old journals. And some of them I read through and I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's some very dark things in here that I don't even remember." Page after page. And I didn't even try to read them much. I just have saved them for the sake of it. But I'm like, "I don't need to read this."
Chandresh Bhardwaj: This reminds me of another very interesting concept in tantra that it takes you beyond the astrology impact. It takes you beyond the planetary effect. When I read my own astrology chart through an app or through some astrologer, I can't believe it's my chart because the negative things it has, I can tell, yes. I had these seeds in me, but now there are washed away. Even if I want to bring them back, I can't. One of the key negative highlight of my chart was the anger, that he'll have so much anger.
Barjdeep Kaur: Wow.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Every other page, it was like a disclaimer, like a warning. You know?
Barjdeep Kaur: Wow.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: He should be aware of his anger. And as a teenager, I was so proud of that anger, because as a male, this is the only language you are taught, to express in anger. The more anger you see around you're like, "Yeah, they are stronger men. They speak in anger. They talk in anger." The movies showcase the same thing. But when I started experiencing the harmful effects of anger, that's when I realized, okay, this is not good. This is actually damaging. And I pretty much spoke to Guruji that I want to, I don't know, get rid of it, fix it. I'm was still teenager. I was still very young. And he said Shiva has a lot of anger. But do you see him as an angry God, as an angry being? I said, "No, I don't."
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And he said, "Okay, the only one way is dhyan, meditation sadhana. It transcends these emotions. You'll still have anger, but it'll be channeled into dimensions. You have no idea." I said, "How do I do it?" He said, "Again, simple word is sadhana, a disciplined, spiritual practice." And I can tell you now I don't even see those elements. But when I started writing Break the Norms, there was a layer of anger that motivated me to write the book, because I was angry about the spiritual state of things. And now I don't even know. Even if I want to be angry, yeah, I don't know where it is. I'm upset about things of course. I'm not angry about things. I remember we went to India for a retreat and I don't know if you know Anquish.
Barjdeep Kaur: No.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: He's based in Mumbai. He manages all the retreats. I've known him for like 15 years. So the hotel messed up some things. And he said, "Chandresh, you have to be very angry with them, because we are going to get refund and we'll upgrade the rooms." And he had a whole plan. This is what he does. And he's genius at it. I could not become angry. And he was like, "You're going to mess up the entire plan." I could not. The students were there. I knew this is all messed up. And I'm like, "Anquish I'm upset."
Barjdeep Kaur: I would very well [inaudible 00:50:38] into Anquish's plan.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: He had a wonderful plan. He still got us few perks. And he said, "I could have gotten you much more things if you were angry." He said, "You were not angry." And that moment reminded me that it was so easy for me to be angry, but it's not even easy anymore, because I kept on explaining Anquish why this happened. This is like a new manager. The communication bridge was missing. So he is like, "Of course I know that was missing. That's why he messed up. And that's why we deserve an upgrade now." But yeah, there's so many things that happen now. I get upset. I want to change that. But the anger is not that much of a dominant factor. And I again, give credit to this simple practice of showing up for your sadhana. And I know you have also experienced the shifting of planetary positions. Is there any particular or any experience that you want to share about that?
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. I never really believed in astrology or horoscopes and all that stuff growing up. All Indian families take some kind of astrological advice. Right?
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.
Barjdeep Kaur: When I go visit India, my parents would take me to some astrologer and then they would actually tell me things that were actually quite true. I remember I was in middle school and one astrologer was like, "She's going to really like to travel, and she's just going to want to see the world. She's going to be footloose. Your other daughter's going to be spending more time with you." And I was like, "Really?"
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Wow.
Barjdeep Kaur: But then at the same time I would read these horoscopes and all these things, I would be like, "This is, for lack of a better word, bullshit." And I was like, I just could not get myself to reconcile my faith. And I'm going to chart my own path, AKA sankalp shakti with this horoscope astrology thing. But I think I've come to the resolution that astrology can be a great tool, but in no way, should you live your life dictated by it. And I think that's very true to what you and I have been taught. And that has resonated very well with me. I very much will edge on the side of sankalp shakti in deciding which course I want to take, versus leading too much on astrology or anything. But I think going back to the connection with roots, I think one of the things that I have come to terms with is our ancestors spent so much time on developing these tools.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: I see. Yeah, of course.
Barjdeep Kaur: And it does pain me when I see people saying like, "Oh that astrology nonsense." I'm like, "My ancestors were not fools. They spent so much time on this thing. It has some value or some purpose."
Chandresh Bhardwaj: It does.
Barjdeep Kaur: But you should not live your life according to it, in my opinion.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah. I feel when a child is born, astrology could become such a beautiful blueprint, that this is his or her strength, put this child into that direction. And if they are also interested, they'll grab that opportunity. But when you are adult, you have that sankalp shakti the power of your action, intention. I mean, then you can put your astrology chart in your closet it and start showing up with action, because karma has taken over now, the actions are going to lead the whole pack.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah. That's a great way of saying it.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: That's how I've seen it. I mean, one of the things that I was told by Guruji was keep your horoscope chart in closet, forget about the key, because it will always limit you. You'll always see yourself through the planets.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah, exactly. The limiting factor. Right?
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yeah.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: And I knew he was right because I was starting to believe everything on it. And I remember when people would tell me about anger. I would say, "Oh, it's in my chart. I can't change it. The universe has decided I'll be an angry man. I can't help it." And I realized I'm making all of this my belief system. But when I realized even the positive things were not happening the way it should have according to the horoscope, I'm like, "Okay, something is missing." And I realized, okay, I think I need to come back to just my heart, my awareness, and start channeling my own strength. I still respect astrology, my chart. And like you said, I have so much respect for the ancestors, teachers who cultivated the power of astrology. But it has its time in place and then it can take a rest.
Barjdeep Kaur: Yep. Yep. Yep.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: So one final question Barjdeep. What does Leela mean to you in one word, or how it's evolving for you in your awareness?
Barjdeep Kaur: That question brings me back to a conversation I think you and I had few years ago in LA. And we both were talking about how much we like the name Leela. And I didn't exactly know what Leela meant at the time, but you kind of explained it to me, that Leela is like the play of life, the play of consciousness. And that's one of the things I have really liked about the Leela program. It has been quite unstructured, which it brings its challenges. But it also really plays to what it is meant to be. This is for you to explore within this period where you have this guidance and help, but also well beyond that. This work is never finished. It is unfolding in different ways throughout your life.
Barjdeep Kaur: And I think one of the things that I remember on, on the last Leela call for our cohort, we talked about this a little bit, about how I had felt prior to Leela that my spiritual work was something that I was going to do to get out of my depression. And once I did that, I was not going to necessarily need to lean into it so much anymore. And my life was going to be set and I can like go on. But one of the things that Leela really helped me realize is that this work is never finished. It shows up in so many different ways. And that's very much how my journey has been. I feel like I have come so far, but yet I have, I still feel like I am an elementary school student. There's so much to unfold, so much to learn.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Yeah, it's never finished. I love how you put it. Yeah, I believe that completely. And I said, that was the last question, but I have to ask you this question. There are plenty of young women, young girls who are listening to this right now. Is there any advice, or lesson, or a sharing you have for them? Most of them are struggling with finding meaning as a woman. Who are they as a feminine, as a woman? What would you say to them?
Barjdeep Kaur: Oh my gosh. This seems so simple, but never stop believing in yourself. As women, we get so many messages from so many different places, subtle, not so subtle, about what we can and cannot be. And I think that when that faith and that belief in ourselves gets hurt, that is when we are most deeply hurt. And I think that's what really led me into depression. But then I was extremely fortunate to be connected with CSJ, to find my guru, meet my guru and have someone that believes in me far more than I have believed in myself even, in those moments especially, and help me regenerate that faith in myself. But really stick true to your path, and do what you need to do to be authentic with yourself. I think we have so many paths carved out, especially for women and girls. And it's less about what's your calling, what's your authenticity? How are you going to be true to yourself and know that at the end of the day, you have done and spent your time, your energy in a way that you wanted to?
Chandresh Bhardwaj: Right. Thank you. Thank you Barjdeep. Everything you shared was so beautiful. I learned a lot. Thank you for sharing. And I hope the audience are going to also benefit from it.
Barjdeep Kaur: I hope so too. It's always the pleasure to talk to you Chandresh.
Chandresh Bhardwaj: May the teachings of tantra continue to guide you and heal you. And I hope Leela Gurukul helps you to unlearn the old and embrace the unknown mystical possibility, unfolding for you. To support this podcast, share it among the seekers who are ready for the next step in their spiritual path.
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